Plus, it's not typically possible for a Cadet to be a " regularly assigned member" of any unit other than their school unit. They don't even have a MOS/Branch assignment or anything else at this point. that When in Charge, Be in Charge applies. Then we'd mow the guy down with an M4. Cadets were not entitled to receive salutes from enlisted personnel. So this cadet would already be embedded with the staff or command team or shadowing the Platoon Leader, and would most likely have some, albeit limited prior service. West Point grads are elite and you know it, Ask any enlisted person and they will tell you that westpointers are arrogant and on need of a lot of training. Thats what the reg says, but how does that work in practice? Prior to his service in Special Forces, Sam served as an Infantry Platoon Leader and Infantry Reconnaissance Platoon Leader, including one deployment to Kunar Province, Afghanistan. I the DC power device safe from accidental shock. Mainly because I do belive the new generation of officers are a bunch of participation trophy recieving, never held accountable, privileged, idiots who can't handle that all that academy training and degree mean jack shit but to stroke their since of superiority over others. Period. Henry Thompson is a junior at the United States Military Academy at West Point, where he majors in American politics and minors in grand strategy. This group helped liberate a huge swath of Syria. The definition is enhanced further by stating Soldiers "present for duty." So there is definitely some need to define regularly assigned. They won't forget what you've shown them and they will resent you. Adept been officially assigned a position in the chain of command? (Still, there is no need to salute them. I practice it for all things because that was my mom golden rule from childhood to yesterday (dementia stole her from me). The NCO referred me to AR 600-20, Army Command Policy, which makes it pretty clear that West Point cadets do, in fact, outrank Army NCOs. We were enlisted in the Air Force for a two year enlistment. In fact, based on my experience there are some West Pointers out there who never learned that. They clearly outrank privates and are often assigned to leadership roles, but they aren't yet commissioned. I was wondering if I would have to make mention of the fact that until they are COMMISSIONED Officers, they will remain nothing more than a glorified E-5 NCO pay scale while in USMA. You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders and as such know who and where you are able to receive the BEST mentorship and hands on experience. CDT Vincent High marks! of Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04. From the senior officer perspective we were largely ignored. On June 11th, an angry and mournful. So you are always busy and have something to do. However, images of U.S. Green Berets on horseback wearing pakols and various combinations of uniforms and shalwar kameez in late 2001 brought the issue back into public view. Plus, onsite youll choose from hundreds of competitive or intramural sports to participate in, and youll have the option to join an extracurricular clubor start your own based on your interests. Good Grunts care less for their next promotion beyond making sure our records are correct. Hooah!!! If athletic challenges excite you and youre willing to face your weaknesses and grow, youll face fear and conquer it at West Point. As far as I know there are no CTLT positions in combat zones. Dont take it as a sign of disrespect however. Even the 3 week crawls into the hide. I see that USMA had a proud communist recently graduate, he might as well spit in my face and all other better warriors than myself before me. Paras 2-9 and 2-10, AR 600-20 further reinforce Scott Faiths important points here. Army command policy is clear the definition of terms. It sits along the historic Hudson River in New York state. Word of advice, if you want to write an op-Ed then you should submit it for publication. I request you review 600-20again. It was priceless to see the look of surprise on my former XOs face when I walked into my old unit on a drill weekend. A honorific form of address indicating respect but only for officers under the rank of knight. Interestingly, when a graduating cadet received his commission, (there were no females in the cadet corps in those days), his commission was backdated 15 months to the date he entered the cadet program, giving him a lead on promotion to first lieutenant. Within the cadet corps there was a rank structure and cadets saluted other cadets with rank above theirs. You and everybody else. We had a young know it all LT around the COMS tent he starts looking around and I see him messing with the ground strap the future leader of our troops disconnected it. Superior to a mere cunning, lazy enlisted man. single time. Officers, commissioned warrant officers, midshipmen, cadets, candidates are all affordedofficer status. When I was an O-3, I regularly saluted SGM's first depending on who saw whom first and the nature of the encounter. Simple professionalism is another, Respect the service, respect the service member. The Air Force Aviation Cadet program was fazed out during the mid 1960's as the Air Force Academy became the primary source of flight rated officers. Is the cadet attached or assigned a leadership position? For lack of official guidance I was assigned as an assistant platoon leader in an Armored Cavalry Company and my platoon sergeant was a former Navy Seal with combat tours in Vietnam (along with other unmentionable places during that conflict). Prepare for leadership roles by applying for jobs in Army branches. The reason "cadets" are even mention in a gentlemans role is due to long ago medieval social customs. I was surprised at the gate when I was saluted by the gate personnel. I was at Camp Buckner in 1989 as my Bn (2/502d, 101st ABN) was slated to train yearlings. I spent 3 years as a MSG and never saluted a cadet. He is currently participating in the Afghanistan-Pakistan Hands program. So glad I longer serve. "b. I asked if he gave the cadets in his unit a hard time as part of their CTLT experience. Be sure you join us as Colonel SHERMAN L. FLEEK will talk about fellow New Yorker, graduate of West Point Class of 1860, one of the boy wonders of the North, and future Superintendent of the Point--"WESLEY MERRITT." Seth Bodnar is the chief digital officer of GE Transportation. In addition to working with allied Special Forces units, he paints . All West Point applicants must meet the following personal qualifications before applying: Be a US citizen (unless you qualify under one of the exceptions) Be at least 17 but not 23 or older on July 1 of the year they enter West Point. I answered honestly saying that I do not believe that I am supposed to render him a salute but that I am willing to accompany him to Military Police HQ to find out . I was now an active duty Captain with a right shoulder patch ( a big deal in those days ) and a couple of combat medals on my chest ( not bragging but including because of the story ). They assume command until relieved by proper authority except as provided in 2-8c. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but Delta has the toughest training in the army and does the highest classified missions. And if you think islam is a warm and fuzzy religion, you're way off! Long story short: Years of hands-on experience trumps reading an instruction manual, This applies in every situation and every single time. I agree with you Sir. However, if you leave USMA before your junior year, you dont have a service commitment. I never saluted another LT after that as an LT. Gold - Gold as in the Class Rings received cadet's senior year, or like the plentiful Brass found on the cadet uniform and the rank/insignia patches worn by upperclassmen designating their cadet rank and position. Sam served as a Special Forces Detachment Commander from 2016-2019, including deployments to Somalia and Nigeria. I learned something that day. NCOs are the backbone of the Army and run the Army day to day (as opposed to commanding it). Jesus.. Wij, Yahoo, maken deel uit van de Yahoo-merkenfamilie. So when would a cadet actually be in charge? Youre right, Sergeant, a West Point cadet DOES outrank you. Als u uw keuzes wilt aanpassen, klik dan op 'Privacyinstellingen beheren'. Infantry Veterans/Retirees cluster together on various online formats and we're very concerned what direction things are going and it has nothing to do with President Trump, I've seen what a prelude to war is twice in my lifetime and I'm seeing another one but in a slower manner. I highly doubt any West Point graduate will magically "see the light" after reading my imput on this discussion. Nobody reads your comments past the first four lines. Both preflight and flight school were run under the traditional cadet model of upperclass and lowerclass where upperclassmen were responsible for much of the military training and discipline of the lowerclassmen. They dont commission until CW2 but I guess they dont really count as Officers either. I found from many years in the Army - with many years in the Special Operations forces - that if you do your current job great it will open the doors to the next job. Cadets are Officers period and should be rendered the appropriate courtesy. For example, is it a school then a tour, then a school, or can you do multiple school at a time? Just try it. Sometimes cadets are relegated to less-meaningful duties, or endure some modicum of hazing as part of the experience. The CFA is a test of strength, agility, speed and endurance. I am acting PL of my platoon because we dont have a 2LT. 2 pm - 5 pm. (Tribune News Service) Army West Point football players will honor the special forces soldiers who helped liberate Afghanistan from Al-Qaeda with the. Tom is passionate about the policymaking process, civil-military relations, and economics. A wise cadet will be mindful of their position. I work with my leadership and learn from them and they help to shape me to become a good officer. So I think he had it right. Congressman or Senator, its important to contact these officials as early as possible since this process can take time. So yes, a West Point cadet DOES outrank a sergeant. I'm an . Interestingly, one weekend I had a pass and visited a college friend at a nearby naval base where he was undergoing Navy Aviation Cadet training. Nope. Ask any SJA. I respect ALL Personnel of the US ARMED FORCES and Civilians appointed over me. You do not join Special Forces. Cadets are never saluted. Sorry- from a legal perspective there is a lot not discussed. During my time in the regulars, I encountered a couple of West Point Grads who, in my opinion had amused contempt for enlisted personnel below the rank of E5. You have to pass an iq test, fitness test, and selection board. A rescinding announcement is required if the temporary assumption of command is for an indefinite period. FOOLISH it is for there to be any antagonism between NCOs and cadets, or NCOs and lieutenants. Seems like the worst kind of leader to have. They've shown great patience, respected my process, and I am grateful for these SFCs, MSGs, and SGMs. Here's my advise that will serve you well; always remember this; ASSUMPTIONS ARE THE MOTHER OF ALL FUCK UPS! No one does this better than The Corps. That sounds like a fun and challenging job. It'd be an advantage coming from an Airborne infantry unit too, usually from the 82nd. That is why cadets dont go to parade rest while talking to NCOs. AR 600-20 lists command structure. which makes it pretty clear that West Point cadets do, in fact, outrank Army NCOs. The wear of civilian clothes and non-standard uniforms by soldiers was not a new development in 2002. As that was a long time ago, my memories of the experience were that it was the best and the worst of both worlds. Officers and NCO's must realize alike that, they way you treat your future Officers (NCO's case) and the way you treat your subordinates (Officers case) will dictate how the military can and will be run in the future. Abigail earned a master of arts in international relations from Johns Hopkins SAIS, concentrating in strategic studies and international economics, and a bachelor of arts, majoring in geology, anthropology, and archaeology, from Washington and Lee University. the leadership essentially passed off their job.. but i ythink it is good these future officers learn from those entrusted to prepare the sustenance.. instead of those that havent actually been in thr kitchen for a couple years. Some of the comments left in this thread have really let me down. (1) If a commander of an Army element, other than a commander of a headquarters and headquarters element, dies, becomes disabled, retires, is reassigned, or is temporarily absent, the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier will assume command. Mids rank between W-1 and W-2 last time I had occasion to check. Elite only in their mind. This is more or less the Armys summer intern program, where young future officers get hands-on experience as a kind of third lieutenant, under the tutelage of a commissioned officer for three or four weeks. No, I always salute them and treat them as officers, and I make sure everyone else does too, he replied in total sincerity. He is a manager for the track and field and cross-country teams. Normal members of the medical team fall within a strict hierarchy (just like rank). Through conversations, we get better LT's coming out of ROTC or NCO's newly converted to O grade.. As corny as this will sound, the feelings related in the film An Officer and a Gentleman at the end were pretty accurate. Point is that one never knows what lies down the road so I try to treat everyone with respect regardless of their rank or position. She began her career as an active duty US Army officer and continues her service as an over-time major in the National Guard. Every single SNCO I've come in contact with in ROTC has developed me as an Officer. indicating superior social status. A straight up lie from a boy who thinks book smarts makes him am expert in my mos. Payback is one reason to avoid it. Corps of Engineers with a class of 5 officers and 10 cadets on March 16, 1802. Wanneer u onze sites en apps gebruikt, gebruiken we, gebruikers authenticeren, veiligheidsmaatregelen toepassen en spam en misbruik voorkomen, en, gepersonaliseerde advertenties en content weergeven op basis van interesseprofielen, de effectiviteit meten van gepersonaliseerde advertenties en content, en, onze producten en services ontwikkelen en verbeteren. but after I had earned my keep so to speak he spent a lot of time teaching and mentoring this Dot head and when I was commissioned he took time off from his civilian job to come to the commissioning ceremony to congratulate me. You're right, Sergeant, a West Point cadet DOES . I agree totally with enlisted not saluting a cadet. It goes both ways and without Officers the Army would surely still fall apart. -If you are a cadet and you don't see the value of picking the brain of an NCO (CPL to SGM), then you will most likely be doing your time and moving on. They aren't commissioned yet, and as pointed out above, they are considered equivalent to an E-5. But short of that, cadets can end up in just about anywhere. It is not necessary to rescind the announcement designating an acting commander to assume duties of the commander during the temporary absence of the regularly assigned commander if the announcement gives the time element involved. He's a former U.S. Army Ranger and Green Beret. Pilot and navigator cadets went to different flight schools. Served in the regulars from 1983 to 1985, and from 1987 to 1989. I pray that you are only a LT yourself. When I contracted under the SMP I was administratively promoted to the rank and pay grade of E-5 ( I had served two years previously in the Army Reserve as a junior enlisted 11B). Not be pregnant. This information was not covered or taught. Indeed, a cadet assigned as a visitor to a regular unit on active duty would not be under disciplinary sanctions by his training command and institution if s/he were under sanctions the cadet would be disqualified from visiting. How dare enlisted swine preside over a command position? It is not just West Point cadets who outrank NCO's. Yet, still burdened with the unsocial characteristic of the enlisted class. At the end of all that, they want a LIEUTENANT, not a medic. You know this, you are assigned as whatever rank you have in the guard. And get to know your PBO very well! Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of Or a sergeant major for that matter. Thread Special Forces. Example: In the U.S. Military a Warrant Officer (W-2W-5) are commissioned but are not gentlemen officers. I had another LT in one of the other shops stop me almost with tears in his eyes that I had just salutes 2 other 1LTs on the way into the building and while laughing explained me to that LTs did not salute each other. At West Point now and am trying to gauge which option I should pursue branch wise out of here. Cadets were sons of the upper class and were, due to social norms, afforded gentlemans status. As he worked in our platoon, we all quietly covered for him, especially when he got misoriented now and then (analog land nav isn't simple, especially when mounted) after a few months he was squared away and we taught him our secrets and he never betrayed us. This regulation shows that cadets rank after commissioned and warrant officers, but before NCOs. I was recently in a conversation with a senior noncommissioned officer in an elite US Army unit, when the subject of CTLT came up. He describes his training techniques for a Special Forces Battalion and working with other nations, including the Greeks, French, British, and Iran in 1976. Imagine that, good ol Top didnt read the entire regulation, only the part that suited his narrativeshocked. You guys are all discussing how the Army does it.. Im AF and In Services(Food Svc) i was assigned an Academy Cadet to teach him what i was responsible for as a SSGT. WEST POINT - In an anniversary year recognizing the military response to the September 11 terror attacks, the Army football team has chosen to recognize the soldiers of the U.S. Army Special. Date within. A CSM outranks a SPC, but you never see the latter salute the former. They act only under the auspices of their supervising physician. Lees ons privacybeleid en cookiebeleid voor meer informatie over hoe we uw persoonsgegevens gebruiken. Or no opportunity? I always say Semper Fi or Airborne when I return salute. Even after more than twenty years in uniform, it still surprises me what I dont know about my own profession, and what I still have to learn from my NCOs. Its like my father (retired CW3) taught me; " I don't have to respect you but I HAVE TO RESPECT your rank.". And cadets initiate salutes to any commissioned officer. Hands on training.. they eill not actually be cooking but learning from hose that do it daily.. Sorry, I wrote that on the go from a mobile device, and can't edit it. I just wished the device had been turned on when he was messing with the ground strap. This rank business is a technicality of the rank system. Abigail is a former Center for a New American Security Shawn Brimley Next Generation National Security Leaders fellow and a former Young Professionals in Foreign Policy fellow, and serves on the board of directors for HillVets Foundation. He served as an infantry rifle platoon leader with the 101st Airborne, as a . He has operational experience and deployments to the Middle East and several countries in Latin America. I think that it would be a huge step in the right direction for the ROTC BNs to send their CDTs to their gaining units with an LOI/MOU pinned to their chest (Im sure ROTC has probably published guidance along those lines, but Ive never seen it) so that those commanders will have some idea what to do with those CDTs when they get there. The one group that actually gave us respect and tried to help and mentor us were the senior NCOs. Visiting West Point Alma Mater/Songs Army-Air Force Series Army-Navy Star Series presented by USAA The Patriot League You are not a leader because you graduated from an academy. (2) If the commander of a headquarters and headquarters element dies, becomes disabled, retires, is reassigned, or is temporarily absent, the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier of the particular headquarters and headquarters element who performs duties within the element will assume command. I really liked the story and learned something as well having been a former SMP Cadet before I commissioned. I hope this sheds some light on things. But usually, you're the one doing most of the work. Your email address will not be published. When an NCO saluted me, I didn't just wave my hand at my cover to dismiss the salute, but "locked up" a little myself, acknowledged him with eye contact, and responded to any greeting. She hails from Easton, Pennsylvaniabest known as the home of Crayola crayons. Until then, do not worry about your future assignments. Henry is a squad leader for the USMA Sandhurst Black and Gold Team, the CIC of a student discussion group associated with the Modern War Institute, and a member of the Domestic Affairs Forum. Then again for the same categories who were on rear detachment duties! The Army isnt some pay your dues ol boys club anymore. Milley Speaks at West Point GraduationWEST POINT, NY, UNITED STATES05.21.2022Defense Flash News - May 2022https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgt2lndbOCnZHPMh. The cadet never will outrank a sergeant first class, master sergeant first sergeant sergeant major etc. . This would be wiser than placing a WP Year 1 cadet in charge of it. First, what an insult to a SNCO that instead of a 1SG with 10 plus years of experience leading soldiers in the absence of officers A Cadet would be next in succession. Youll also be training cadets, taking courses in leadership development, chain of command, military history, and more. The fully-funded four-year education stands out amongst top non-military universities, and is worth more than $225,000. You and everybody else. Hope this was brief enough for you or TL:DR? Size: Small to Medium | Condition: Very good. Sunday, Mar 12, 2023 | 12:00 PM Eastern. I was assigned to the 25th ID in 1972. I'm not a regular progression cadet so this is a better look at the situation. It may not display this or other websites correctly. -If you are a Soldier and you are still carrying around the trash attitude of the "good ole' days", it is most likely time for you to go. I wondered how he, as a senior NCO in a highly specialized unit, felt about having cadets around. Thought about it and stored it away and drove on. Assumption of command under these conditions is announced per paragraph 2-5. Some in the media and NGOs were quick to claim . While being true you must also realize there is a need for Commissioned Officers as well as Non Commissioned Officers. In respect of ROTC, the R stipulates that only a contracted cadet in ROTC fits the definition I presented. Good answer. Yes I have seen a misguided ROTC cadet DEMAND a salute from an E-9 once. I had a CO at one point who absolutely had a genuine dislike for NCOs and believed them to be useless. The United States Military Academy (USMA), also known metonymically as West Point or simply as Army, is a United States service academy in West Point, New York.It was originally established as a fort, since it sits on strategic high ground overlooking the Hudson River with a scenic view, 50 miles (80 km) north of New York City. Also, how many years of experience is required before even being considered into SF school? Of course, there is another reason to treat West Point and ROTC cadets with respect: they are not going to be cadets forever. The best way to train cadets to be officers that their soldiers will look up to and their NCOs will respect is to treat them the way you want them to act. It's hilarious when reality trumps the entitlement issues of a newly hatched fetus. Fact #1: West Point is the oldest continuously operated Army post in the United States. It should be. I learned something that day. Your comment reeks of arrogance. Useful for special forces, regular soldiers and civilians alike. CYS Open Gym. His research interests include irregular warfare, surrogate warfare, and insurgency. Treat the Cadets with respect. You must log in or register to reply here. Of course there is a certain type of officer who fails to get it. Incorrect. Youll begin to get leadership experience by serving as a squad leader for Basic Training, taking courses in international relations, platoon operations, and more. It is very physically and mentally challenging because its meant to help you reach your highest potential as a future Army Officer and leader. Now by chance he.be in a billet at some hq and psperwork comes in front of him about ration counts for personnel and what the job description calls for for a 3m Senior Cook requisition.. for his order.. what its called these days) hell be sble to understand better what the job description says. Medical students are not in this hierarchy at all except they answer to doctors and do only what a doctor tells them to, under that doctors supervision. This gives cadets going into their final years of pre-commissioning training the opportunity to experience life in an active duty unit. If you've ever been in a doctor's appointment and a medical student was assigned to your doctor, that's about how cadets in CTLT and SMP function. Not only do NCO's get shit on by their LT's but sometimes the LT is getting shit on by his Company Commander. I have always loved sniping. Tell the NCO's that you don't want to seem like a dick that you're being so picky on things, you're just building trust so later you know who's good to go and what each of our strengths are and that goes for the young LT as well (that's called humility and the men will understand because it's fair). Look at any Command where a COL thru Gen and you will see a whole lot of Soldiers both Officers and NCOs running and doing everything to make that command function! It can be a very valuable and rewarding experience if done right and an unfortunate waste of time for the CDT and unit if its not. The use of software that blocks ads hinders our ability to serve you the content you came here to enjoy. I never got gigged for not saluting another LT, so I didnt think much of it. Commit to service as an Army Officer after graduation. Your attitude will get you relegated to a Quonset hut in BFE. He has much humility and respect for all who serve and served so he will appreciate your words. Very interesting. Saluting a cadet completely invalidates the First Salute ceremony when they commission. You see there is a important reason that the strap be properly secured to the six foot ground rod driven into the ground. First off the reg says regularly assigned personnel, which the Cadets are not. In my case I was lucky and had a CO who was ROTC cadre and knew what to do with me. This regulation shows that cadets rank after commissioned and warrant officers, but before NCOs. In those days once a month you went before the pay officer and received your pay in cash. It broke my heart when I found out that officers can not be snipers. This item is part of Wartime Military Memorabilia Auction. Life 101. I did 24 years in the ARMY and have been led by West Pointers! I believe my words only carried weight because I've already been in the Army for 10 years and the Senior cadre knew this (I didn't get in any trouble). I chose Engineer with the full intent of going to Special Forces at some later point. Tom has spent time working at various levels of local government as an intern for both the 27th legislative district in Arizona as well as the office of Arizona governor Doug Ducey during the COVID-19 pandemic. Get off your high horse. March 4th. Technically. Henry has interned on Capitol Hill for North Carolinas 9th congressional district under Congressman Robert Pittenger. Pursue a bachelors degree and earn your commission as an Officer by attending the countrys most prestigious military service college. The two year enlistment term allowed for cadets who had to temporarily halt training because of illness or injury. NCO's look at big picture constantly, good officers are aware of this and cultivate this. They're inchoate officers. Tom Katsenes is currently a junior at the United States Military Academy at West Point, majoring in American politics. In other words, each the SNCO and the cadet would be functioning appropriately. It was advanced pay so to speak. Only W1's, lacking a commission, are excepted from Art. A Gunny at 29Palms RTAMS and a Chief at NASA/AMES CA are among my most treasured mentors. His approach to us was simple and he asked lots of questions about how to best kill tanks and he found that each man has their own method of how they like to do things and tactics they like or dislike and for what reasons. Anyway. aviator, Special Forces Officer, and historian in several command and staff positions. And taken that way. How would a cadet be regularly assigned? West Point Admissions Requirements and Deadlines. 7:30 pm - 10 pm. Death, disability, retirement, reassignment, or absence of the commander. While CTLT is a useful and important mentorship and developmental activity, many units see CTLT as a drag, and dealing with cadets as a hassle. They receive paygrade of ~E-5 however they hold a higher position. Matthew holds a bachelor of science in environmental engineering from West Point, a master of business administration from Harvard Business School, and a master of public administration with a concentration in international security policy from the John F. Kennedy School of Government. I've seen this relationship play out in the Army. Ready to take the next step? West Point graduates are highly sought after. We want to mold a new Officer to become a great leader we can always remember but there's a limit to what we're willing to do.